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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build (Read 29738 times)
Derek B
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bumpy cruise torque converter lockup
Reply #105 - Aug 5th, 2019 at 3:09pm
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BBC with 250 duration cam w/108 lobe separation
4l80e w/ PTC 3000 stall converter all controlled be EZ TCU controller.

My problem:    during low rpm cruise (1700-2000rpm) and TC lockup,   the truck bumps along with the rpm of the engine,  at least this is my perception.  I don’t believe this is any kind of slippage,   I do think that when the converter is locked up that the converter and transmission is picking up the rough idle and transmitting it as a bumping or perceived shudder.   The truck only does this during TC lock up at low rpm cruise.   After listening to the exhaust notes, the torque converter does bump along with the exhaust notes.  This is what leads me to this hypothesis.

I called PTC,  they said there may be a way to tune the engine around this.   also, since with the EZ TCU I can set converter lockup parameters, the PTC tech guy said, set the TC lockup at speed signal higher to come in at a higher rpm until another resolution can be found.  he said there was no danger to the TC by doing this.

called Chris Straub,   he was not able to provide any guidance and referred me to a gentleman in Chattanooga via email.  I'm waiting to hear back on that.

I'm calling EZ TCU tech line again today and I was told to call back later and talk to Ricky (evidently he is the hard case tech guy)
  

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dubwise
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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #106 - Aug 6th, 2019 at 6:53pm
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You are on the right track. Sorta.  Grin

I'm surprised PTC didn't tell you about some guy in Orlando that had a similar issue like the one you are describing.  Cheesy ...as I called them awhile back when I had the same issue - asking the exact same questions.

It sounds like you are sort of following in my footsteps trying to resolve the issue. The answers/advice to resolve the issue fully is on the last page of this thread. Up to you if you want to take it or not.

Bump the lockup up to 55-60mph and see if things improve. If not, reread some of the guidance I posted earlier to get things sorted. If it doesn't make sense, ask for some elaboration and I'll try to assist.

You want to find the RPM where the cam profile "smooths out" and set the lockup for that speed. But with that large of a cam it may be higher than you want. If you haven't locked out the HEI yet, or at min put in the heaviest springs you have you are not doing yourself and favors. Irrespective if you are feeding the RPM signal to the trans controller, if you have lighter springs in there bouncing around - once lockup comes on you'll feel that in the drivetrain. You won't feel it with the TCC off as its essentially a fluid cushion between the engine and the trans.
  

1992 454ss: 540ci / 4L80E (Vortech YSI-B S/C)
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Derek B
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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #107 - Aug 6th, 2019 at 7:34pm
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dubwise wrote on Aug 6th, 2019 at 6:53pm:
You are on the right track. Sorta.  Grin

I'm surprised PTC didn't tell you about some guy in Orlando that had a similar issue like the one you are describing.  Cheesy ...as I called them awhile back when I had the same issue - asking the exact same questions.

It sounds like you are sort of following in my footsteps trying to resolve the issue. The answers/advice to resolve the issue fully is on the last page of this thread. Up to you if you want to take it or not.

Bump the lockup up to 55-60mph and see if things improve. If not, reread some of the guidance I posted earlier to get things sorted. If it doesn't make sense, ask for some elaboration and I'll try to assist.

You want to find the RPM where the cam profile "smooths out" and set the lockup for that speed. But with that large of a cam it may be higher than you want. If you haven't locked out the HEI yet, or at min put in the heaviest springs you have you are not doing yourself and favors. Irrespective if you are feeding the RPM signal to the trans controller, if you have lighter springs in there bouncing around - once lockup comes on you'll feel that in the drivetrain. You won't feel it with the TCC off as its essentially a fluid cushion between the engine and the trans.


Yes I will be doing the lockout as a natural progression.    I really wanted to use the new trans controller anyway because of its ability to simplify the process and provide settings easily and quickly.   I also get to get rid of a MAP and CTS senosors along with all the extra wiring.   And I don’t have to worry about flashing the ECM.  I know it’s not the cheap way.  But I couldn’t help it  Grin Grin
The rpm required to get up to a smooth rpm will put me at about 75 mph.  And that’s where I have eztcu set now.   I think I will get an all electronic distributor and cdi box  next.   That should fix it.  And if it doesn’t....    we will see.     The question a have is will an all electronic timing setup smooth out the idle.??   Thanks again.  I am following your advice     We will get there thanks again.

Thanks again.
  

Hot street 496 build 10.5:1 solid roller with AFR 265 Ovals Gen V block.
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Derek B
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what distributor
Reply #108 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 12:46am
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dubwise wrote on Aug 6th, 2019 at 6:53pm:
You are on the right track. Sorta.  Grin

I'm surprised PTC didn't tell you about some guy in Orlando that had a similar issue like the one you are describing.  Cheesy ...as I called them awhile back when I had the same issue - asking the exact same questions.

It sounds like you are sort of following in my footsteps trying to resolve the issue. The answers/advice to resolve the issue fully is on the last page of this thread. Up to you if you want to take it or not.

Bump the lockup up to 55-60mph and see if things improve. If not, reread some of the guidance I posted earlier to get things sorted. If it doesn't make sense, ask for some elaboration and I'll try to assist.

You want to find the RPM where the cam profile "smooths out" and set the lockup for that speed. But with that large of a cam it may be higher than you want. If you haven't locked out the HEI yet, or at min put in the heaviest springs you have you are not doing yourself and favors. Irrespective if you are feeding the RPM signal to the trans controller, if you have lighter springs in there bouncing around - once lockup comes on you'll feel that in the drivetrain. You won't feel it with the TCC off as its essentially a fluid cushion between the engine and the trans.


dub-If I wanted to cut to the chase here what ignition system would fix this ? You mentioned the Hall effect distributor by MSD  and what ignition box? The only reason I have what I have is all I want is something that works.  If it cost 100 or 500 I don’t care. I don’t mind spending the money if thats what I need.
  

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dubwise
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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #109 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 2:40am
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Unfortunately for this one I can't realistically give you a recommendation for a hall effect distro and CDI that would work with the fitech. I would probably call them to see if they can give you a recommendation.

What I can tell you though is ideally you would want the fitech to control the timing while also having the benefits of a CDI box along w/the hall effect. This would also allow you to leverage the full advantages of EFI. Doing this should also allow you have the ability to program the timing curve (with the fitech) and get an aggregated log file complete with timing info in it along with all the other default fitech EFI data. Can you do this w/o having the fitech controlling timing? Yes, but wait for later on in this post and I'll tell you why its probably less than ideal.

Once you are at that stage where you can log everything, you should be able to easily fine tune the TCC lockup or at min, identify exactly what RPM and timing the issue happens so you can make adjustments accordingly.

Another option to take into consideration is you are sort of at a cross roads, much like I was awhile back. Before you invest the money in a new CDI box and hall effect distro make sure fitech has support for it. Last thing you want to do is be way out in left field running a setup that say only a handful of people are running, that doesn't have a ton of support from the manufacturer.

That is what ultimately what led me to the holley sniper as their hall effect distro, CDI and coil are competitively priced and the support is there for the setup if need be (and its all made by the same manufacturer so they couldn't play the blame game). One last thing is don't do what I did, as at one point in time I had a programmable MSD CDI box (to set ignition curve), the programmable Fitech (for the EFI / fuel) along with the (programmable) factory PCM (for the 4L80e). That was on the brink of insanity trying to get 3 different boxes to work with one another, along with having to tweak 3 different boxes when I wanted to make a change to something. ( dont get me wrong this setup will work, but it was a lot to take in).

Realistically I can only tell you what I ended up with. That doesn't mean though that there could be alternatives that would work just as well though.

TLDR- Call fitech to see if you get a "Warm and fuzzy" when you ask if they support a CDI and hall effect setup.

Hope this helps.
  

1992 454ss: 540ci / 4L80E (Vortech YSI-B S/C)
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Derek B
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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #110 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 2:49am
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dubwise wrote on Aug 7th, 2019 at 2:40am:
Unfortunately for this one I can't realistically give you a recommendation for a hall effect distro and CDI that would work with the fitech. I would probably call them to see if they can give you a recommendation.

What I can tell you though is ideally you would want the fitech to control the timing while also having the benefits of a CDI box along w/the hall effect. This would also allow you to leverage the full advantages of EFI. Doing this should also allow you have the ability to program the timing curve (with the fitech) and get an aggregated log file complete with timing info in it along with all the other default fitech EFI data. Can you do this w/o having the fitech controlling timing? Yes, but wait for later on in this post and I'll tell you why its probably less than ideal.

Once you are at that stage where you can log everything, you should be able to easily fine tune the TCC lockup or at min, identify exactly what RPM and timing the issue happens so you can make adjustments accordingly.

Another option to take into consideration is you are sort of at a cross roads, much like I was awhile back. Before you invest the money in a new CDI box and hall effect distro make sure fitech has support for it. Last thing you want to do is be way out in left field running a setup that say only a handful of people are running, that doesn't have a ton of support from the manufacturer.

That is what ultimately what led me to the holley sniper as their hall effect distro, CDI and coil are competitively priced and the support is there for the setup if need be (and its all made by the same manufacturer so they couldn't play the blame game). One last thing is don't do what I did, as at one point in time I had a programmable MSD CDI box (to set ignition curve), the programmable Fitech (for the EFI / fuel) along with the (programmable) factory PCM (for the 4L80e). That was on the brink of insanity trying to get 3 different boxes to work with one another, along with having to tweak 3 different boxes when I wanted to make a change to something. ( dont get me wrong this setup will work, but it was a lot to take in).

Realistically I can only tell you what I ended up with. That doesn't mean though that there could be alternatives that would work just as well though.

TLDR- Call fitech to see if you get a "Warm and fuzzy" when you ask if they support a CDI and hall effect setup.

Hope this helps.


Unfortunately my meanstreet doesn’t support timing control.       And wow thank you for your response I appreciate your time it took.   
  

Hot street 496 build 10.5:1 solid roller with AFR 265 Ovals Gen V block.
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Derek B
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my build failed!!..... but thats ok.
Reply #111 - Mar 21st, 2020 at 5:25pm
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so heres the story.  just to start off let me remind everyone, I'm not a professional mechanic and this is the first engine I've built.  I am no professional. however, I went to great lengths to do the best job I could do, bought all the correct tools read all the books and talked to experienced people whenever I had an issue I wasn't sure about (thank you Tom). I took this build very seriously and spent a lot of money on quality parts, this is no junk yard build.

I was ripping down the road on a nice day, beating on the truck a little.  the truck was running great.  very quickly the engine started to overheat rapidly and I started to hear a loud singular repeated knock or clunk from the engine compartment, the indicated gauge cluster temperature climbed to about 280-290 maybe.(my fitech never read over 190..?) I managed to pull off into an empty parking lot with smoke coming from under hood.  The timeframe was about 2-3 minutes from running great to being parked and off.

I could smell burning oil.  I opened the hood just enough to look under and spotted flames from under the drivers side valve cover. I was able to kill the flames with just my hand. A spark plug boot was burning under the valve cover gasket that had pushed out from under the valve cover, almost as if it was forced out with internal pressure. they were cork gaskets with steel internal body.  It seemed that the oil being expelled through the failed valve cover dripping on the header and plug boot was the source of the fire.

while I was looking at the engine I noticed the radiator cap was not nearly as hot as the intake.  I was able to open the radiator cap and observed NO coolant visible at all inside the radiator or the overflow tank.  The truck was towed home.

That night I drained the oil and pulled the filter. There was no obvious coolant in the oil and after cutting the oil filter open there was no observed material within the filter pleats. But the coolant had to go somewhere right?
At this point I am thinking a head gasket failure between a coolant passage and the combustion chamber or maybe even the intake gasket failure between intake ports and coolant passage?  At the point of writing this I’m not sure.  The intake gasket showed no sign failure and the drivers side head gasket showed no signs of obvious failure.  (Haven’t got to the passenger side yet).   

I am rather excited to do failure analysis. my goal is to find the point of failure and the reason for the failure.   I will update this thread when, if I find it.

Below are is my instagram account and links to pics of the disassembly.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9xHT2UJASt/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9zJa8wpWKa/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9zYcC3JWqO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9zYexDJhB3/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/B99uif4pRR2/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/B990B1SpQs3/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/B990KRLJ4np/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

edit:  I pulled the passenger head today and that gasket looked good too.
I also took a deeper look into the filter and found some glitter an a couple pieces bigger than glitter (this is the third filter at this point). I am tempted to just pull the whole motor at this point, pull the pan an inspect bearings.  but the question about the coolant loss is still not answered.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B-CpK3fJxkv/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link (head)  https://www.instagram.com/p/B-CslE-JZT2/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link (filter media)
« Last Edit: Mar 22nd, 2020 at 5:19pm by Derek B »  

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Derek B
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failure update
Reply #112 - Mar 24th, 2020 at 8:28pm
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I have done some investigation over the week.
the small glitter dust in the oil filter is magnetic, it dances as I wave a magnet above it.  and there that material seems to be the only material in the filter. since it doesn't seem to be bearing material I will not be pulling the engine.

the other symptoms of the failure (coolant loss, and valve cover gasket blowout) seem to be suggest that the head is lifting under load.   the reason I'm suspecting the head lifting is the when I was removing the driver side head the head bolts were easily removed with a 3/8 ratchet and on the passenger side I had to use my 1/2 impact to lessen them.  In any case I'm sure thats not right.

I will be cleaning up the top end and regasketing everything and running it.  we'll see.
  

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Re: failure update
Reply #113 - Mar 25th, 2020 at 12:36pm
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Derek B wrote on Mar 24th, 2020 at 8:28pm:
I have done some investigation over the week.
the small glitter dust in the oil filter is magnetic, it dances as I wave a magnet above it.  and there that material seems to be the only material in the filter. since it doesn't seem to be bearing material I will not be pulling the engine.

the other symptoms of the failure (coolant loss, and valve cover gasket blowout) seem to be suggest that the head is lifting under load.   the reason I'm suspecting the head lifting is the when I was removing the driver side head the head bolts were easily removed with a 3/8 ratchet and on the passenger side I had to use my 1/2 impact to lessen them.  In any case I'm sure thats not right.

I will be cleaning up the top end and regasketing everything and running it.  we'll see.


Sorry to hear about the problems Derek. I always run arp headbolts in my N/A big blocks and i torque them to 100ft lbs on every iron block motor ive had and never any issues. What did you torque your headbolts to? Or do you run studs?

Jamie
  


90' CHEVY 454SS
99' CHEVY 2500 ext cab shortbed 4wd
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Re: failure update
Reply #114 - Mar 25th, 2020 at 12:36pm
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Derek B wrote on Mar 24th, 2020 at 8:28pm:
I have done some investigation over the week.
the small glitter dust in the oil filter is magnetic, it dances as I wave a magnet above it.  and there that material seems to be the only material in the filter. since it doesn't seem to be bearing material I will not be pulling the engine.

the other symptoms of the failure (coolant loss, and valve cover gasket blowout) seem to be suggest that the head is lifting under load.   the reason I'm suspecting the head lifting is the when I was removing the driver side head the head bolts were easily removed with a 3/8 ratchet and on the passenger side I had to use my 1/2 impact to lessen them.  In any case I'm sure thats not right.

I will be cleaning up the top end and regasketing everything and running it.  we'll see.


Sorry to hear about the problems Derek. I always run arp headbolts in my N/A big blocks and i torque them to 100ft lbs on every iron block motor ive had and never any issues. What did you torque your headbolts to? Or do you run studs?

Jamie
  


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99' CHEVY 2500 ext cab shortbed 4wd
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Derek B
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Re: failure update
Reply #115 - Mar 25th, 2020 at 2:32pm
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90-454SS wrote on Mar 25th, 2020 at 12:36pm:
Sorry to hear about the problems Derek. I always run arp headbolts in my N/A big blocks and i torque them to 100ft lbs on every iron block motor ive had and never any issues. What did you torque your headbolts to? Or do you run studs?

Jamie


I really did suspect problems and really I kind of like the process of fixing something. Thank you for your response. 
Anyway, I’m using arp bolts with the recommended torque setting and process.  I torqued them to 75 ft lbs and went up in a sequence of 3 increase to get there.  I also used the arp   Thread sealer.   You said you used 100ft lbs? I’d be a little concerned to go that much over the recommendations, but like I’ve said this is my first go around I just want to do it correctly.

Thanks
  

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