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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build (Read 22463 times)
dubwise
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Re: Next: no overdrive issues
Reply #90 - Jul 23rd, 2019 at 10:18pm
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Derek B wrote on Jul 23rd, 2019 at 1:43pm:
Next problem for me to solve;   I’m having trouble with the 4l80 locking up and staying in overdrive.   
I’ll start the truck and start down the road I’ll get it up to speed and the overdrive seems to shutter or jerk just a little bit, it’s not violent  but you can definitely tell something is up.    This only happens at cruise, constant throttle position.   Acceleration and deceleration is not a problem.  After about 2-3 miles overdrive completely goes away and it stops shuttering (for lack of a better word).  This process repeats itself the car sits for a bit.   
I went to a local transmission shop just to ask what they thought, he pretty much just shook his head in understanding and said I need to get a new transmission controller.  He told me it’s not worth me bringing it to him to trouble shoot a 1992 ECM when I can buy a brand new computer for about 500$.   I agreed, I’d like to get this working but I’m not paying good money for someone else to sort this out.  If I can’t sort this out on my own I’ll be looking for a trans computer.

Anyone like or had good experience with a auto transmission controller?   Tci, goshift?


Oh joy. This issue is royal pain to solve as there are a ton of variables involved in this one. I had this same issue that I battled for years but was finally successful in the end.

Do you think the issue is something like I described here?

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?4224-TCC-Lock-w-saw-to...

The stock PCM can be tweaked to help this issue, but I don't believe the PCM is %100 at fault here, although I'm presuming you'll need to eventually tune the PCM to bring lockup in later once the cam is "smoothed out" at higher rpm. IMHO your issue (and the exact problem I had) lies with the engine size/cam/timing combo. The 4L80E lockup will act up big time with a larger cam and the timing curve, along with lockup MPH has to be perfect. No need to buy an aftermarket trans controller for this one.

What was happening in my case originally was the HEI springs were bouncing around at cruise causing the timing/rpms to be more erratic than the PCM cared for which caused the lockup hysteresis.

Lets start with some basic questions. What cam do you have in the engine, and how are you controlling timing?

  

1992 454ss: 540ci / 4L80E (Vortech YSI-B S/C)
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Derek B
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Re: Next: no overdrive issues
Reply #91 - Jul 24th, 2019 at 1:38am
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thank you for the reply
Your sitatuation sounds eerily similar to mine but my TC lock up seems more herky-jerky than yours.
here are my specs:
dur @ .050/ 248in 252ex     lift ..638in  .595ex. 1.7ratio.  overlap 34
Fitech mean street 800. BBC
summit HEI vac adv two wire (timing is set old school style)
tach comes from TACH terminal on distributor run through CoilX then to the ppl/wht wire
stock original 7060 factory tach, map sensor/.    TPS from fitech with Casper breakout
original 4l80e with PTC single clutch 3000 stall converter

I am happy with the way it runs otherwise


Oh joy. This issue is royal pain to solve as there are a ton of variables involved in this one. I had this same issue that I battled for years but was finally successful in the end.

Do you think the issue is something like I described here?

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?4224-TCC-Lock-w-saw-to...

The stock PCM can be tweaked to help this issue, but I don't believe the PCM is %100 at fault here, although I'm presuming you'll need to eventually tune the PCM to bring lockup in later once the cam is "smoothed out" at higher rpm. IMHO your issue (and the exact problem I had) lies with the engine size/cam/timing combo. The 4L80E lockup will act up big time with a larger cam and the timing curve, along with lockup MPH has to be perfect. No need to buy an aftermarket trans controller for this one.

What was happening in my case originally was the HEI springs were bouncing around at cruise causing the timing/rpms to be more erratic than the PCM cared for which caused the lockup hysteresis.

Lets start with some basic questions. What cam do you have in the engine, and how are you controlling timing?

[/quote]
  

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dubwise
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Re: Next: no overdrive issues
Reply #92 - Jul 24th, 2019 at 1:22pm
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Derek B wrote on Jul 24th, 2019 at 1:38am:
thank you for the reply
Your sitatuation sounds eerily similar to mine but my TC lock up seems more herky-jerky than yours.
here are my specs:
dur @ .050/ 248in 252ex     lift ..638in  .595ex. 1.7ratio.  overlap 34
Fitech mean street 800. BBC
summit HEI vac adv two wire (timing is set old school style)
tach comes from TACH terminal on distributor run through CoilX then to the ppl/wht wire
stock original 7060 factory tach, map sensor/.    TPS from fitech with Casper breakout
original 4l80e with PTC single clutch 3000 stall converter

I am happy with the way it runs otherwise

[/quote]

The 1st thing I would try is put the heaviest springs that you have in the HEI to see if the situation improves. The root of the issue is the springs bounce around enough to upset the PCM with larger cams. Mine is a 241/243 110lsa and I had the same issue. With a smaller cam this issue may not surface. Once the PCM sees the RPM bouncing around it thinks the engine is misfiring which is causing the issue IMHO, this is assuming the mechanicals in the trans are up to par. If you really wanted to take a deep dive into this to see if you are experiencing this issue, the PCM will eventually throw a "negative slip prevents re-apply" code - I can't remember the specific ODB1 code right now though I wanna say its something like DTC 68. I'd place my bets though that this is indeed the issue as your cam is a bit larger than mine.

If the first suggestion seems like you are heading in the right direction, the ultimate solution would be to lockout the HEI and get a programmable CDI box to hone your timing curve. Or if the meanstreet can do the timing that would be ideal as well instead of buying a programmable box.

The last step to refine the lockup would be to reprogram the PCM TCC lockup. There are some settings that can be tweaked in there such as TCC lockup duty cycle and lockup MPH. You can also adjust the shift points, shift times  and line pressures which are nice too, but won't assist directly with resolving this issue, however its a good addition. There are probably some guys on there who could help burn you a chip. If not, I may still have a chip burner around somewhere.

One last thing to mention that I came across during my struggle with this is the mag pickup in most distro's create a lot of noise, which the PCM (along with other wiring close to the distro) does not like. I ultimately ended up with the holley sniper and hyperspark with hall effect sensor after a lot of difficulties with this. IIRC, once I locked out the HEI I could never get the MSD start retard to work properly and I probably broke at least 5 starters.  Roll Eyes  Thank heavens for autozone warranties tho!  Cheesy

Good luck w/this and lmk if you have any further questions.



  

1992 454ss: 540ci / 4L80E (Vortech YSI-B S/C)
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Derek B
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thank you dubwise
Reply #93 - Jul 24th, 2019 at 5:45pm
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Great I will try all this.  Thank you very much. 
Did you ever try an aftermarket trans controller?  I am new at all this but I do understand the concepts of the cam and rpm and the ECM ability to process what it’s getting.  I just want to at least know if a new controller can be more agile and handle the signals that my motor has.   
The new aftermarket controllers only need a TPS and RPM.   IF the controller can accept the rpm signal I’m giving it, wouldn’t it fix this issue?   I do consider this plan b but I’m just curious.
Thank you very much for all your time to explain this to me, I really appreciate this.  I will investigate all These options.   

dubwise wrote on Jul 24th, 2019 at 1:22pm:


The 1st thing I would try is put the heaviest springs that you have in the HEI to see if the situation improves. The root of the issue is the springs bounce around enough to upset the PCM with larger cams. Mine is a 241/243 110lsa and I had the same issue. With a smaller cam this issue may not surface. Once the PCM sees the RPM bouncing around it thinks the engine is misfiring which is causing the issue IMHO, this is assuming the mechanicals in the trans are up to par. If you really wanted to take a deep dive into this to see if you are experiencing this issue, the PCM will eventually throw a "negative slip prevents re-apply" code - I can't remember the specific ODB1 code right now though I wanna say its something like DTC 68. I'd place my bets though that this is indeed the issue as your cam is a bit larger than mine.

If the first suggestion seems like you are heading in the right direction, the ultimate solution would be to lockout the HEI and get a programmable CDI box to hone your timing curve. Or if the meanstreet can do the timing that would be ideal as well instead of buying a programmable box.

The last step to refine the lockup would be to reprogram the PCM TCC lockup. There are some settings that can be tweaked in there such as TCC lockup duty cycle and lockup MPH. You can also adjust the shift points, shift times  and line pressures which are nice too, but won't assist directly with resolving this issue, however its a good addition. There are probably some guys on there who could help burn you a chip. If not, I may still have a chip burner around somewhere.

One last thing to mention that I came across during my struggle with this is the mag pickup in most distro's create a lot of noise, which the PCM (along with other wiring close to the distro) does not like. I ultimately ended up with the holley sniper and hyperspark with hall effect sensor after a lot of difficulties with this. IIRC, once I locked out the HEI I could never get the MSD start retard to work properly and I probably broke at least 5 starters.  Roll Eyes  Thank heavens for autozone warranties tho!  Cheesy

Good luck w/this and lmk if you have any further questions.



[/quote]
  

Hot street 496 build 10.5:1 solid roller with AFR 265 Ovals Gen V block.
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dubwise
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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #94 - Jul 24th, 2019 at 7:44pm
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I did not attempt to use an aftermarket controller as I decided it would be more cost efficient to get a chip burner and make the changes myself.

IMHO the only thing an aftermarket trans controller will get you is the ability to change the parameters easier.

I would guess that if you chose an aftermarket controller you'd still wind up in the same position you are now but have a lighter wallet as the issue isn't %100 in the PCM - its in the HEI advance springs / cam profile.

As far as feeding the RPM signal to an aftermarket controller, if your tach input looks like this:

https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/Ra5taDub/tcc-issue1.jpg

(red jagged line), then the TCC will look like the purple line. The controller, regardless of brand, will simple take the garbage in and give you garbage out. In this case you'll need to address the "garbage in".
  

1992 454ss: 540ci / 4L80E (Vortech YSI-B S/C)
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Derek B
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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #95 - Jul 24th, 2019 at 10:20pm
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You’re probably right,   The thing that turned me on to the controller is the ability to tell the computer to lock up the tc at specific speeds and tps position.   Negating the need to input rpm, map, or cts.
I have called the tci tcu “guru” today just to poke his brain.   Their computer only needs speed and tps.    You can ad an rpm output if wanted.   The rest can be set through the handheld.  I found this intriguing,  as I have more money than patients ,lol.  I would love to troubleshoot this and be successful in the long term,  but if I can buy the controller and it doesn’t work, I’ll just take it back.    Maybe Not,   just looking at all options.

dubwise wrote on Jul 24th, 2019 at 7:44pm:
I did not attempt to use an aftermarket controller as I decided it would be more cost efficient to get a chip burner and make the changes myself.

IMHO the only thing an aftermarket trans controller will get you is the ability to change the parameters easier.

I would guess that if you chose an aftermarket controller you'd still wind up in the same position you are now but have a lighter wallet as the issue isn't %100 in the PCM - its in the HEI advance springs / cam profile.

As far as feeding the RPM signal to an aftermarket controller, if your tach input looks like this:

https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/Ra5taDub/tcc-issue1.jpg

(red jagged line), then the TCC will look like the purple line. The controller, regardless of brand, will simple take the garbage in and give you garbage out. In this case you'll need to address the "garbage in".

« Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2019 at 11:24pm by Derek B »  

Hot street 496 build 10.5:1 solid roller with AFR 265 Ovals Gen V block.
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Derek B
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lock up plan of attack
Reply #96 - Jul 28th, 2019 at 5:02pm
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First I need to eliminate vacuum issues within the manifold at low rpms.  As soon as I can grab a vacuum pump this will be done. If no change, 
I am going to look at the rough distributor signal because of the cam.   To fix this, lock out distributor and install CDI box to get away from mechanical advance;   
Then I’ll need to reprogram the pcm (which I have no clue about) lockup and duty cycle values.   
I am admittedly out of my depth here but I guess that’s been the case the entire build.  I guess I’ll just learn it.   


  

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Derek B
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Oil filter analysis, laugh or cry with me?
Reply #97 - Jul 31st, 2019 at 2:22am
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First oil filter check after build


https://www.instagram.com/p/B0jxbTVgNGU/?igshid=6ogfcv1c3dj7

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0j6TZsg1tl/?igshid=zdiqnj5xridf

Some of it is magnetic some of it isn’t

I called chris straub at StraubTech.  He recommended spinning a new filter on runnng it for a short while and checking the filter again.    If I’m getting any debris then,   The engine is coming out for inspection.    Cry
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2019 at 5:28pm by Derek B »  

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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #98 - Aug 1st, 2019 at 2:03pm
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Was this the first oil change ? By that I mean , this was the only oil and filter this engine has seen ?

What oil ? What filter ? Bypass blocked ? 

TOM
  
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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #99 - Aug 1st, 2019 at 2:03pm
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Was this the first oil change ? By that I mean , this was the only oil and filter this engine has seen ?

What oil ? What filter ? Bypass blocked ? 

TOM
  
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Derek B
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1992 454ss

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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #100 - Aug 1st, 2019 at 3:58pm
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Nasty_Z wrote on Aug 1st, 2019 at 2:03pm:
Was this the first oil change ? By that I mean , this was the only oil and filter this engine has seen ?

What oil ? What filter ? Bypass blocked ? 

TOM


FRAM  with Gibbs br30
Yes it was the very first inspection 180 miles
I’m running the upgraded 30lb bypass valves
  

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Re: 1992ss 4 bolt main 496ci build
Reply #101 - Aug 1st, 2019 at 5:28pm
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Derek B wrote on Aug 1st, 2019 at 3:58pm:
FRAM  with Gibbs br30
Yes it was the very first inspection 180 miles
I’m running the upgraded 30lb bypass valves


Run it

FWIW, I wouldn't leave "break in" oil in there that long , nor use a Fram filter , but I don't see anything in the pictures that looks abnormal for a fresh rebuild .

I would put a good filter on it and refill the oil , give it another 500 miles or so and check again .


TOM
  
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ok that’s what I’ll do
Reply #102 - Aug 1st, 2019 at 6:36pm
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Nasty_Z wrote on Aug 1st, 2019 at 5:28pm:
Run it

FWIW, I wouldn't leave "break in" oil in there that long , nor use a Fram filter , but I don't see anything in the pictures that looks abnormal for a fresh rebuild .

I would put a good filter on it and refill the oil , give it another 500 miles or so and check again .


TOM

Ok I’ll do it.     I have some of those ph4 racing FRAM filters I’m running.    I’ll do an oil change too.    Any particular oil you recommend?     Also.  I ran the test on the map sensor with no change
« Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2019 at 2:34am by Derek B »  

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Re: ok that’s what I’ll do
Reply #103 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 2:24pm
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Derek B wrote on Aug 1st, 2019 at 6:36pm:
Ok I’ll do it.     I have some of those ph4 racing FRAM filters I’m running.    I’ll do an oil change too.    Any particular oil you recommend?     Also.  I ran the test on the map sensor with no change


WIX 51060 Filters , Valvoline regular (Blue and White bottle) oil is all I run .

So, holding the MAP with full vacuum didn't do anything ? Weird ...

TOM
  
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diagnosing TC shudder? Misfire?
Reply #104 - Aug 4th, 2019 at 5:43pm
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Did a short cruise drive and I noticed that a low rpm cruise (1700-1900) I’m getting a stuttering exhaust note, this note seems to directly correspond to the shuddering when the TC locks.   since this engine is stuttering (maybe some kind of misfire?) and the TC is locked , the TC is picking up the engine stutter and presents as a shudder at low cruise rpm.   

I did go ahead and pick up the EZ tcu tranny computer and installed it this weekend.  This module allowed me to force a lock and unlock of the TC.
The EZ TCU is not throwing any codes and the rpms on both the TCU and FiTech are reading very stable.    I now have the ability to remove the RPM signal to the Computer, doing this made no difference.   

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0wC-MAgXnR/?igshid=iiterxuauhbu
  

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